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DJEHUTY
Truth is necessary for autonomy.
Articles Posted: 71; Links Seeded: 1110
Member Since: 3/2006Last Seen: 9/26/2009
Member Since: 3/2006Last Seen: 9/26/2009
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Watching a story about vivisection and animal cruelty sit on my column for 12 hours is surprisingly difficult. Amongst other things it brings with it the irresistible urge to explain my real feelings on this topic. So indulge me, please...
For half my adult life I've been vegetarian, and for most of the other half I ate fish but no other meat. I'll explain in a moment why I changed my mind, a little.
Animals are not qualitatively different to humans
I've always believed that animals can suffer. This seems obvious but it needs to be said as a starting point. I saw a documentary once about African elephants. They visited a grove of grapefruit trees, growing in the wild, and covered in ripe fruit. But they didn't eat them immediately. Instead they left, to return a week later when the fruit had fallen from the trees and was beginning to ferment. Then they got drunk.
Seriously, if that doesn't indicate so many qualities so close to human - planning, communication, and the enjoyment of altered mental states - then I don't know what could.
I've owned horses, goats, cats, and a pig. None of them are stupid and they all have personalities. Pigs are just beautiful creatures with an unmatched love of the sensuality of life. Goats are slightly high strung but they're funny. They have a sense of humour and play. All animals can be lonely, or happy, or a whole range of other emotions. Cats in particular are sensitive to the feelings of humans.
While I'm not arguing that we should give as much consideration to the welfare and suffering of animals as we do to that of humans, I think that we cannot reasonably discount it altogether. Doing so, I believe, diminishes us.
We currently treat food animals very badly
Feedlots, battery chickens, factory farmed pigs. I really don't want to go into details. It's well documented that we overlook the cruel treatment of livestock in the pursuit of cheap food. You need a strong stomach to look at some of the photographs.
Organic and free range animals do much better except perhaps at the abattoir. Fish in particular are often wild-caught, and the issue there is more likely to be one of conservation, although some methods of netting make death long drawn out.
Animals are an inefficient use of arable land
Plants have a surprising amount of protein and far more calories than meat per kilogram. When you work it out per hectare they win on both counts. High density meat production is also terrible for water, runoff, and chemical use. As the world gets wealthier meat consumption is increasing, and this and economic considerations are driving a shift from grain for humans to grain-fed cattle in lots. It's easy to make fun of farting cows but higher meat consumption also has a greenhouse effect.
Conclusions?
My first thought was that this all made vegetarianism seem sensible. I also think it's a matter of ethics that animals not be killed without good reason, so you have cruelty, environment, non-violence, and efficiency as good reasons to be vegetarian. Or eat fish, since other than the non-violence angle humanely wild-caught fish are a reasonable way to use the oceans as a food source.
Then I noticed how fish stocks around the world were crashing, and I thought I'd better give up fish. It's not quite as simple as that, by the way. In between eating fish and being entirely vegetarian I ate meat for a couple of years. I've always liked it. I'm no saint. You know how it is...
Then recently, after setting up and running a vegetarian restaurant for a few years - mostly to prove that there's no reason meat-free food can't be tasty - I've changed my mind a bit.
Considering the species environment
The simple reality is that humans control, fairly directly, the environment of a large proportion of the land-surface of the earth. Animals live in these areas because humans allow it.
There are areas of true wilderness, and there are national parks and other areas of "managed wilderness" where human influence is minimal or restrained. Much of this is fairly inhospitable. In the rest of the world animals are domesticated or controlled by culling, pest reduction, or at the very least human interference with the numbers of top predators. Most animals of any size are domestic breeds.
If we were all vegetarians - and I mean vegans - there would be very few animals except pets, pests and other feral animals which avoid human sanction. And I think that would be a pity.
So imagine instead that all food animals were kept and killed humanely in free range environments. We would have a lot less of them, because they'd be more expensive and require more resources and especially land area to produce. But if you were such an animal would you find your life satisfying, even though it would end at a relatively young age in the farmer's cool store? I think so. And I think the world would be a better place for having those extra animals in it. In particular I think organic mixed farming, which creates an actual ecosystem on the farmland rather than a monoculture, is by far the most environmentally sound approach.
To do this you have to kill animals. Given that humans in one way or another control whether most animals live or die, I don't have a problem with that. I'm more concerned with cruelty, the environment, and making a way for all of us - animals and humans - to live in some kind of peace and harmony. Consequently I now eat a small amount of organically produced cruelty free meat and fish.
You may have noticed that my guiding principle here is Kant. Live by principles such that if all lived by those principles the world would be a good place. I imagined that world and I wanted there to be animals in it.
But not blind tortured bunnies.
PS:
Please see Carole's comment below.
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{"commentId":1526913,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
Am I telling the truth? Yes. I think you can tell if you think about it. In any case follow the reasoning and check your facts.
{"commentId":1526913,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"djehuty"}
- 8 votes
#1 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 8:28 AM EST{"commentId":1529317,"authorDomain":"LucifersHammer"}
I've been a vegan since 1986. I don't really care what other people eat, and when I was raising my (now grown) children I didn't make them vegetarians. I will cook meat for others if they're eating in my house (my wife isn't a vegetarian and I do all the cooking) but I make choices for myself.
Lots of people seem to take it personally that I don't eat meat and will rudely question my choices. I never try to convince others, and just do my own thing.
Great article.
{"commentId":1529317,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"LucifersHammer"}
- 6 votes
{"commentId":1529607,"authorDomain":"pobox522rlyeh"}
I don't recall reading the vivisection article. No wait, I'm positive I would have remembered that article if I'd read it, espescially before hearing about the pranking going on.
I have heard the discussion about how we specifically have animals around in some cases simply because we need them for slaughter. It's a relevant thing to talk about, but I never really know where to go with it. Personally, I believe that at some point in our evolution we are going to need to start thinking about how much jungle and forest we need to just leave alone in order to preserve the biosphere. I don't mean just occasionally leaving a park alone, I mean setting aside large stretches of land.
I feel the same way about animals, and part of the reason we need more preserves is specifically to give animals a place to live in their natural habitat. Keeping a couple lions in a forty foot habitat which subsequently makes them slightly crazy isn't going to do it.
I read an article somewhere (I need to find the original source) that indicates some archaeologist dug up the bones of Roman gladiators and did a detailed analysis of their bones to try and determine how they ate. The surprise answer was that they ate almost entirely vegetables, wheat, and such, and very little meat. That was more so then the culture around them; they came up with the theory that gladiators were fed a different diet because it helped them recover from injury faster.
From what I can tell, the idea that we really have to eat meat in order to be healthy is simply a myth. When I read about the new order of Shaolin Monks in China, the author made certain to point out that every single monk had never eaten meat in his entire life. Their daily calisthenics involved running up a flight of stairs all the way up a mountain, and then walking back down the stairs on their fists. (You know, walking on their hands, except on rock stairs.) I could add a bunch of other insane physical qualifications but you get the idea. If they aren't healthy, I have no idea who is.
(And this isn't an old story; there is video footage of every one of those monks doing just that, every single morning. It's a routine many begin when they are six.)
{"commentId":1529607,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"pobox522rlyeh"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1530454,"authorDomain":"chasing"}
By the way my children were raised vegetarian
Good on you. I've never understood the reluctance of vegetarian parents to enforce vegetarian diets on their children. They, perhaps unwittingly, enforce the idea that meat eating is "normal" and vegetarianism is "abnormal".
My children will be raised vegetarian, and if, when they move out of my home, they decide to become meat eaters, that's fine by me. Perhaps even before, so long as they use their own money, make their own decisions, and don't bring it into my home. At some point you do have to let them go, I know.
However meat-eaters enforce meat diets on children all the time. I don't see why it shouldn't be well within the rights of a parent to enforce a vegetarian diet on a child, either, or why more vegetarian parents don't see it that way. Societal pressure, I suppose, and tradition?
{"commentId":1530454,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"chasing"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1531589,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1526947,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}
Excellent article, Djehuty, as always. Very informative.
It's an interesting thought, too, that if everyone were Vegan we would have less animals. It had never occurred to me before, but it rings true.
I hope people will read this with an open mind, especially anyone who comes here out of curiosity after the prank. Reading this will show them that you are a serious, gentle man, an asset to the vine, and not the type of person who would torture a bunny.
Because it's all about the bunnies.
{"commentId":1526947,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}
- 9 votes
#2 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 8:48 AM EST{"commentId":1527928,"authorDomain":"laef"}
"It's all about the bunjemins, baby" (sorry just started singing that now)
{"commentId":1527928,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"laef"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1528890,"authorDomain":"energynet"}
I'm not sure that I would agree that that there would be less animals if we were all vegan.
The world doesn't magically remove a bunch of animals because the world has had a change in consciousness. The corporate food industry is only one small part of the overall animal population. Your American SafeWay mindset exists here, but not across the rest of the planet. The vegetarians of India didn't wipe out animals, or kill them for sport. Most animal species today are outside of our animal factories.
Just a few generations ago, most towns had chicken coops where everyone could enjoy fresh eggs from range chickens. The key here is the word "coop". The corporate factory farm has no motive to treat chickens humanely. Its all about the bottom line. While coops were about community and trades that puts people in human touch with others. I'm sure that ethical relationships to chickens would mean a very similar sized population of real chickens. In this case, the chickens would be able to have real lives, so in my opinion, there would actually be an increase in the number of chickens. Factory farms aren't about animals, but meat. The things they keep in battery cages aren't chickens. Same for cattle.
If the world magically became vegetarian, it would also bring with it a whole different relationship to the environment and how the current corporate mindset is destroying the world. Oh, yes, factory farm animal populations would go away. Our energy footprint in food would drop dramatically. The human population issue would quickly become the central question. There would certainly be no further problem of finding enough protein for humans. But there still would be issues across the board in terms of how westerners perceive their current wasteful lifestyle. There isn't a vegetarian in this country that isn't acutely aware of environmental and population issues. That of course, can't be said for meat eaters.
But within two generations, this culture as we know it today would look nothing like it does today. Vegetarian behavior is far more than merely just becoming sensitive to animal treatment. It includes human treatment as well as how the natural world is related to.
I'm not sure why you need the idea that there would be more animals in your argument here?
I do understand that anti-vegetarian antagonism in this country has never been higher. To me, my spiritual habits as my vegan values are private, and I am not big on the idea that others should do what I do, simply because I do it etc.
I was unwilling to kill animals for the food I eat. I believe that a whole lot of people would have a very different relationship with animals if they had to kill their own food.
The movement made a lot of mistakes, including how it lets young kids become way too messianic in promoting the issue. If there is one thing that you have become aware of is that animals are beings and can have real lives, communities and families that they value and want to participate in. The system alone lets you get away with not having to share in the actual treatment and last moments of animals being used for food. In my opinion it is the act of killing that animal that is of concern. Most people in this country have warped relationships with death and how we deal with it. The warp has a lot to do with how we treat each other and people outside of our own society.
Ask any dog or cat owner whether they would be willing to kill their pet and eat it? Yet, we can kill people and animals around the world that we don't know personally.
And we do so because we routinely hide the real act of killing. This is not just a made for TV drama. A being is losing its chance at life. That being will feel agony, cry out in terror and struggle to survive. Those screams. That struggle. That drama, if you have a single bit of nature in you will effect you like no other event.
Not long ago, civil people gave the role of the butcher to somebody else and moved the event away from the populations eyes, ears and senses. We are not really predators, thus the act of killing has to be learned.
{"commentId":1528890,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"energynet"}
- 7 votes
{"commentId":1529508,"authorDomain":"laef"}
that's a well thought out contribution energynet, nice one.
now i'm going on my own couple of tangents under your comment here....
In the near future (next 10 years) I think 'food' and diet for the westerner are going to change drastically, and i'm hopeful... People will learn that they can't trust the FDA, they'll find all the true benefits of nutrition in something as common as an organic, locally grown orange, or broccoli, or whatever else your grandparents used to eat. As it is indicated all over this article its also ok if people eat meat sometimes, but there are a lot of ethical issues and different issues of sustainability involved in that. Community farming, and local food sources in general will regain popularity in the western world when consumers are educated on the subject. The biggest problems today are you have huge companies like Monsanto, and they don't even have to label their products and how they were created, pesticides, hormones, or other strange new bio engineering to get better profits.
but back to why i wanted to comment in the first place, about not having to kill the animals personally, you said:
And we do so because we routinely hide the real act of killing.
it occurred to me you can also apply this to present day warfare, all the filters that stop you from seeing all the actual death, and therefore people are desensitized and it never reaches them on a personal level. You never know or see anyone/even the pilot who drops the bomb doesn't. It makes it a lot easier to do.
What if everyone who voted for war had to go to the front lines too, and personally kill someone?
we might have a world of pacifists, and vegans, with animals as pets?
sorry i realize i just made a leap from vegetarianism to modern warfare.
{"commentId":1529508,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"laef"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1529532,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1529582,"authorDomain":"laef"}
true. at least a leap to a different subject heading though...
I like your comment up there, particularly the pig story/dilemna...
and the elephant story from the article. It made me think of another one I heard about, i think I read it in that recent Jane Goodall book called Harvest for Hope .. ?
anyways they did this experiment with some gorillas, giving them a choice between a head of organic lettuce, and one gen. modified that is readily available at all our grocery stores. The Gorillas would pick up each one and sniff both of them, then consistently bite into the organic and chuck the other head of lettuce over their shoulder like it was crap. I think people should assume that they know best and learn from that.
people should consider these things and rethink their diet, that's all i'm sayin,.. right?
{"commentId":1529582,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"laef"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1527126,"authorDomain":"greenpagan"}
Yeah but what about "eat of be eaten"?
If we don't kill the cows and chickens they'll kill us!
They hate our freedom...
----
BTW -- Morning Star Farms has a good line of veggie burgers and other vegetarian products. Another good food is pressed baked tofu. Beans and lentils and rice. Nothing wrong with that.
====
{"commentId":1527126,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"greenpagan"}
- 9 votes
#3 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 9:56 AM EST{"commentId":1527837,"authorDomain":"riverbird"}
LOL, riight on.
{"commentId":1527837,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"riverbird"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1544702,"authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
Another good food is pressed baked tofu.
In theory that's right but in the US over 90% of the soy is Monsanto's Roundup Ready gmo %$#@ so it is terrible for your health and for food sovereignty. It's a case of corporate government finding a way to ruin any reasonable, human solution!
{"commentId":1544702,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1544801,"authorDomain":"wbrianwhite"}
However most of that soy is fed to animals. The majority of soy products I have ever seen for sale in health food stores is organic, and more than half I've seen for sale in even low end grocery stores are as well.
{"commentId":1544801,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"wbrianwhite"}
{"commentId":1546092,"authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
The majority of soy products I have ever seen for sale in health food stores is organic, and more than half I've seen for sale in even low end grocery stores are as well.
Which brings up an interesting question of where it is coming from when over 90% of the US crop is gmo. Some is imported from China but with the cost of oil why are we shipping a crop we can grow?
{"commentId":1546092,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1527131,"authorDomain":"greenpagan"}
my guiding principle here is Kant. Live by principles such that if all lived by those principles the world would be a good place.
Yeah but...was Kant a vegetarian?
(Just asking…)
====
{"commentId":1527131,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"greenpagan"}
- 3 votes
#4 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 10:00 AM EST{"commentId":1527273,"authorDomain":"celestina"}
Wonderfully written, as always. I have reached many of the same conclusions, was vegetarian for years, started eating fish, and finally came around to right where you are. But I do have to admit that the "if everyone were vegan there would be less animals" angle hadn't occurred to me. Thanks for setting the record straight, Djehuty. The bunnies of the world thank you, too.
{"commentId":1527273,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"celestina"}
- 5 votes
#5 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 10:56 AM EST{"commentId":1539157,"authorDomain":"Tenurist"}
I thought of an advertising campaign to stress this point - pressing the angle "No-one will thank you" As in all of these tortures do not / will not exist. It is not like we are doing anything to help the poor things, in the end, we are just going to damn entire groups of species to this fate.
Noone will thank-you, the emphasis being that these tortured and murdered animals should not and would not exist if not for us, and it is also an atonement as well, for I suppose surving on gluttony rather than reason.
{"commentId":1539157,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"Tenurist"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1527385,"authorDomain":"rogerwalsh"}
Fantastic article and I'm in full agreement. I'm a meat eater (mainly beef and pork) but over the past couple of years I've had a dilemma due to thoughts similar to you. I can't eat meat not knowing if the animal has had a good life or not.
The problem I think is that the majority of people (certainly in the UK) expect meat with every dish. We need to get rid of this mindset. We eat too much rubbish.
I've cut my meat intake to a couple of times a week and only sourcing good quality, fresh, organically reared and well treated livestock. It costs a hell of a lot more, but I'm eating less and so it all evens out nicely.
{"commentId":1527385,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"rogerwalsh"}
- 4 votes
#6 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 11:33 AM EST{"commentId":1527952,"authorDomain":"laef"}
I eat meat a few times a week, I think people need to understand you don't have to declare 'vegetarian' or 'non-vegetarian'... it's not a "with us or against us thing".... actually few things are.
I find it peculiar that when i order a vegetarian slice of pizza, or a vegetarian sandwich, meat eater friends ask me, "oh, i didn't know you were vegetarian?".... then i have to explain its not a frickin cult or anything, i am just conscious of sustainability, and the gross mistreatments of animal stock by large packing plants, etc... I don't eat meat with every meal. Nobody should.
anyways, i enjoyed the article and i might link people to it in the future if they ask why i don't eat meat very often.
{"commentId":1527952,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"laef"}
- 4 votes
#7 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 2:18 PM EST{"commentId":1528313,"authorDomain":"tamh"}
Yes, judgement is not necessary- it's a personal choice. Having said that, as a once-vegetarian and now occasional meat-eater, one or two of my friends have made much out of me 'turning back' even though they eat meat anyway. I guess vegetarianism is a concept that carries with it certain pre-conceived notions about the people who practice. And no, it's not a cult, lol!
Thanks for this Djehuty!
{"commentId":1528313,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"tamh"}
- 6 votes
{"commentId":1527993,"authorDomain":"caroleroach"}
It is an unfortunate fact that to survive we need to eat (unless we are breatharians and the judgement is out on this as to it's accuracy). The difficult part for me in the debate between meat eating and solely vegetable eating, becomes my belief that not only does vegetable growing take up space (too), but that even an apple and lettuce have feelings and scream when cut away from their home whether that be root or plant. For anything to be nourishing it must be alive. The more alive, the more nourishing.
On the spiritual side of things, it is acknowledged that plants also live and this gives us another reason to give thanks at meal times. I also agree with quality of life and humane killing.
{"commentId":1527993,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"caroleroach"}
- 4 votes
#8 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 2:32 PM EST{"commentId":1528001,"authorDomain":"funkybunch"}
I'll be completely honest. I wish I could be a vegetarian. But until I move out on my own, I really lack the capability of doing so. My family has a habit of cooking meat every single night for dinner. Literally. I can't remember the last meal where meat wasn't the center piece of it. And if I could just stop eating meat now, I would.
I like the article very much, Djehuty. Good piece.
{"commentId":1528001,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"funkybunch"}
- 3 votes
#9 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 2:34 PM EST{"commentId":1528066,"authorDomain":"riverbird"}
you can still choose to refuse it
{"commentId":1528066,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"riverbird"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1528602,"authorDomain":"funkybunch"}
You don't know my mother.
{"commentId":1528602,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"funkybunch"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1528636,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1528647,"authorDomain":"funkybunch"}
My mom is one heck of a cook. And so is my dad. And to be honest, as much as I'd like to become a vegetarian for the health reasons, I love a good burger. I think if it wasn't for burgers, I could become a vegetarian without a hitch. But regardless of that, my mom just doesn't have a whole lot of variety in what we eat for dinner. It's normally something meat related/vegetables/side dish, whether it be rice, macaroni & cheese, etc.
My mom would be supportive if I told her I wanted to be a vegetarian. But she'd freak out when she ran out of ideas for dinner that didn't involve pork or beef.
{"commentId":1528647,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"funkybunch"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1528112,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
My only qualm about writing this, in fact, was the timing. Of course I don't agree with the bunny article - but hell, you should all know that. I'd have liked to have the strength of mind to let that one sit for a few months before explaining.
{"commentId":1528112,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"djehuty"}
- 2 votes
#10 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 3:14 PM EST{"commentId":1528244,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
Thank you Martin, this kind of article I like much better then the last time I was here.....
{"commentId":1528244,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
- 3 votes
#11 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 3:53 PM EST{"commentId":1528247,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1528275,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
Just to maybe explain a little as to why I had such a "violent" reaction to the bunny story. I used to raise rabbits as a kid, grew up on a farm and had animals all my life including a couple horses and several dogs. Also I have been involved with the Sierra Club for over 20 years. Part of my spare time is spent with Search and Rescue Medical Teams which also include animals at times.
The day before the grand prank, I had the not so fun task of helping to load up several dead horses from a woman charges with a felony horse abuse case right outside of Seattle. So lets say, I was a bit on the "animal rights fragile" side of things when the rabbit story broke. I apologize if I angered anyone in the process as I was very pissed off and very confused at the time.
Carnation woman charged with felony cruelty in horse-abuse case
{"commentId":1528275,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
- 2 votes
#12 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 4:02 PM EST{"commentId":1529405,"authorDomain":"Infohack"}
I don't think you need to apologize, Tedd. Whoever wrote the spoof (I'm guessing Walt D.) was pretty diabolical. What got me sucked in a little bit was the justification:
A practical good beats an ideal thats perfect and unattainable.
It has a certain kind of Josef Mengele logic to it.
{"commentId":1529405,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"Infohack"}
{"commentId":1529523,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
I agree infohack. I changed my mind and have emailed Djehuty to please delete my comment #12 as I also received several emails saying no need for the apology plus I feel it takes away from this column.
So........-->>Djehuty.....Please....Delete my comment #12
{"commentId":1529523,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1529539,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1529553,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
I sent it over 2 hours ago, I will send again.
OK just sent to your address here on file via hotmail.
{"commentId":1529553,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1529566,"authorDomain":"Infohack"}
Damn - that was my other choice - I second-guessed myself.
plus I feel it takes away from this column
I don't see why. It raised the issue and indirectly led to the discussion here.
Getting people to think about and discuss complex and controversial issues is never a bad thing in my book. It tends to expose us to new viewpoints and foster critical thinking.
{"commentId":1529566,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"Infohack"}
{"commentId":1529589,"authorDomain":"Infohack"}
Never mind, I thought you meant making reference to the original article and your reaction to it takes away from this column.
{"commentId":1529589,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"Infohack"}
{"commentId":1529611,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
Nobody like hearing or reading about abused horses is the problem infohack.....that was my mistake. Thats another reason I want it gone. Thats a issue I have to deal with, nobody else.
{"commentId":1529611,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1529659,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1529665,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1529739,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
Its really up to you. I just felt it was kinda in the way and did not belong. BTW I am dumping the Hotmail account, its a throw away account I only use for Newsvine. Not my real address (or I mean one of many..)
{"commentId":1529739,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1529786,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1528927,"authorDomain":"SyncChromeCity"}
Thanks for this. I made the decision to go veggie 20 years ago for health, environmental and ethical reasons after reading Peter Singer's Animal Liberation (I later found out this book worked its logic on a number of people, it's kind of a standard). I'm quietly vegetarian. I made my choice --so my actions would align with my values -- others can make theirs. But it's frustrating when people share recently discovered atrocities about meat. I know. That's why I don't eat it. Yea! Instead of, "Why are you vegetarian?" I think the question should be, "Why do you eat meat?"
My mother freaked out when I decided to go vegetarian in junior high (on Thanksgiving!). Since she didn't know how to cook without meat, I said I'd cook the family dinner a couple of nights a week. My brother later went me one better and became vegan. Our Thanksgivings are yummy now, Mom's learned lots of new tricks!
{"commentId":1528927,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"SyncChromeCity"}
- 2 votes
#13 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 7:18 PM EST{"commentId":1529415,"authorDomain":"igmuska"}
This is for those of you that are "vegetarians" and relates to why you have quit eating proteins. If you quit because you hate to have animals suffer, I respect your wishes, but if you quit because you think that you're helping stop the slaughter of animals, I'd think you are a wingnut.
I'd suggest this to you, go downtown, find a place where you can get buffalo meat, make a stew. After a bit, when you try to eat beef cattle, you can smell the medicines and other garbage they feed those poor animals.
Perhaps the issue is that starvation is a product commercialized by big corporate conspiracy to sell suffering.
On the other hand, I enjoy gardening and eating broccoli as much as anyone else but since my constitution demands that I eat proteins, I am stuck with chicken...I avoid eating hamburger or steak.
{"commentId":1529415,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"igmuska"}
#14 - Sat Mar 1, 2008 9:44 PM EST{"commentId":1536836,"authorDomain":"LucifersHammer"}
you have quit eating proteins
Huh? We haven't stopped eating protein, just stopped eating animals.
I'd suggest this to you: Don't engage in namecalling (wingnut), and while you're downtown, have a nice time.
{"commentId":1536836,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"LucifersHammer"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1536866,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1543398,"authorDomain":"wbrianwhite"}
I eat lots of protein. Protein not equal meat. Meat is more than anything else in today's American diet a vehicle for saturated fat to enter the diet. How do you know that your constitution requires you to eat meat exactly? There are vegan and vegetarian bodybuilders and other athletes who pretty clearly show that you can do anything you want with your body without meat.
{"commentId":1543398,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"wbrianwhite"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1529881,"authorDomain":"vas"}
Djehuty, thanks for writing this. You and a few of the commenters have provided me some food for thought — Alas, if man could only live on thought alone.
{"commentId":1529881,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"vas"}
- 4 votes
#15 - Sun Mar 2, 2008 12:34 AM EST{"commentId":1529903,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1529911,"authorDomain":"vas"}
And I you :)
{"commentId":1529911,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"vas"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1530370,"authorDomain":"Spaman"}
Animals are not qualitatively different to humans
Agree with this in that they are sentient creatures - the way they are made limits the extent of what they can do... but let's face it most wild animals spend most time just surviving, so any philosophy is way out of reach.
We currently treat food animals very badly
Yes, I agree with that - whether it be the way battery hens are kept or the way animals are killed ... far from humane...
I also agree that the torture of animals for research purposes - for drugs or cosmetics is totally against the well being of these creatures, and shows us up as spiteful and dangerous for people that do this have no respect for life.
I am a mostly vegetarian through choice, because I've never really enjoyed eating meat or fish - I had a terrible time for many years, growing up and so on, as there just wasn't the choice of foods available as alternates.... and I was made to feel very wrong for not wanting meat....My education on the subject, was of course also lacking - but for me it has always been about taste and texture......
As regards killing animals to eat - I still take the view that this is a natural part of life - almost all creatures are a part of the food chain for another... so I don't see that humans should be different... they have the choice of what they can eat ... but they also have the power to treat animals properly - Cruelty should have no say when it comes to animals.
One final point - some governments have started to legislate human rights for animals ... and this is the worst possible thing they could do ..... When they have to legislate that, then it shows the people who mistreat are less than human... and the people bringing in the laws are idiots who know nothing about empowering individuals to live better lives and treat others well.
{"commentId":1530370,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"Spaman"}
- 1 vote
#16 - Sun Mar 2, 2008 7:03 AM EST{"commentId":1536433,"authorDomain":"chill888"}
I apologize for being late
well done
{"commentId":1536433,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"chill888"}
- 3 votes
#17 - Mon Mar 3, 2008 6:43 PM EST{"commentId":1542831,"authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
It's a strange irony that I was much quicker to the fake Bunny article than to this real McCoy! Considering we share each other's deeply held views on vegetarianism. And during my first comment on the bunny article, I really did not know of the prank. So against that backdrop, I'm really glad you have written these words. More for the benefit of your other readers than muggins here. A couple of builds:
Livestock farming – I seeded a UN report on this from last year which is about the strongest indictment of vegetarianism from ecological, economic, social and environmental contexts, let alone the more obvious humane angle which prompts most people to the concept. I strongly urge all to read the full study from a neutral, observer role.
My own belief is extended by all those aspects that you cited by a deeply held conviction about diet and its relationship with what I understand as simple laws of nature. Mankind has a two way relationship with plant life. As a vegetarian, the air that we breathe is exhaust from the plant kingdom and what we exhume feeds them. What we eat turns into fertilizer for them (and a similar separate water cycle for what we pass) which in turn yields fruit that we consume. OK, if one thinks in quite those terms, not exactly a palatable thought but that's the basic idea.
Mankind does not have a similar two way relationship with members of the animal and/or fish kingdoms. It is not a give and take and therefore goes against my interpretation of that natural law of an environment that we share with all its citizens. I have not always been a veggie. For the time I did eat meat, I loved the taste of steak or chicken. And even though I completely stopped over 20 years ago, I still get pangs if I see someone at my table licking a chicken tikka masalla nugget. Each to their own; someone else's diet does not offend me at all. Perhaps even someone's else's livelihood which is probably why although I felt a sense of inward shock when reading about you and your sweet bunnies, I did not feel as repelled as I would have expected.
Thanks for this. Much appreciated. Both contrasting articles have offered much food for thought. Impossible to have achieved that as effectively under normal circumstances, in my view.
{"commentId":1542831,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
- 4 votes
#18 - Wed Mar 5, 2008 10:54 AM EST{"commentId":1543962,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1547293,"authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
Thanks Djehuty. Kinda made me highly amused when I was recently accused of this among other characteristics in a similar vein...
the true hate-mongers are people like you
I cried with laughter at that. Maybe I'm getting too soft in my old age:-)
{"commentId":1547293,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1542983,"authorDomain":"fitzright"}
I'll stop eating meat when lions stop hunting antelopes and switch to bagels*. I believe meat is a natural part of our diet since cavemen discovered how to kill an animal with a stick**. It's why we all have cutting teeth.***
However, I absolutely agree with you that we should try to avoid unnecessary cruelty handling the animals that are meant to end up on our plate. But the problems reaching that state are tantamount.
The earth has never been as crowded as right now; billions of people depend on meat producing industries for their daily food. Raising awareness and subsequent action is needed, but I fail to see how.
* There goes Discovery Channel
** Stick killing was patented by Gnork, son of Graaaah
*** It's evolution. Or, if you prefer: if God didn't want us to eat meat, he wouldn't have given us cutting teeth.
{"commentId":1542983,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"fitzright"}
- 4 votes
#19 - Wed Mar 5, 2008 11:33 AM EST{"commentId":1543041,"authorDomain":"Spaman"}
Excellent piece Trevor
...perhaps the answer is for people who do still enjoy meat to compliment it with more non-meat foods, thereby cutting down demand for animals
{"commentId":1543041,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"Spaman"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1543119,"authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
LOL Trevor. cutting teeth are for salad leaves, carrots, nuts et al. Mighty hard to grind them sans sharp gnashers. As I have discovered since some dental surgery to replace some oldies with bridges in the mouth(-:
M - clipped to Vegetarian Group. A hidden gem that I only discovered by chance recently.
{"commentId":1543119,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1543421,"authorDomain":"wbrianwhite"}
The earth has never been as crowded as right now; billions of people depend on meat producing industries for their daily food.
This is quite possibly the wrongest statement you could possibly make about meat. The grains fed to an animal over its lifetime could feed 100 times as many people as the animal does. If your concern is hungry people, then eating grains is the answer, not eating meat.
See this table to see how much meat the various countries eat.
{"commentId":1543421,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"wbrianwhite"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1543832,"authorDomain":"caroleroach"}
Just checked out your link Brian and was intrigued as to Australia's no show in the statistics.
{"commentId":1543832,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"caroleroach"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1543998,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1544132,"authorDomain":"fitzright"}
Cutting teeth are for salad leaves, carrots, nuts et al
Really? Then why don't cows and elephants have them and are tigers and crocodiles almost completely made of sharp shiny teeth? Am I missing the point completely here?
This is quite possibly the wrongest statement you could possibly make about meat. The grains fed to an animal over its lifetime could feed 100 times as many people as the animal does.
The wrongest statement? Is this a dare? I bet I can go even wronger...
Seriously, I haven't considered that. It was my understanding that these animals were mostly fed on agricultural byproducts and such. I stand corrected.
{"commentId":1544132,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"fitzright"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1544249,"authorDomain":"wbrianwhite"}
In most countries that is the case, grasslands that are of no other agricultural use are used for grazing animals. In those situations, that is the only way to get food value out of the land. In the US what we increasingly do is the feedlot system, where animals are locked up and fed on grain raised on prime agricultural land (among other less savory ingredients).
{"commentId":1544249,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"wbrianwhite"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1544549,"authorDomain":"caroleroach"}
Thank you for the link Djehuty, it is very interesting.
{"commentId":1544549,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"caroleroach"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1544601,"authorDomain":"fitzright"}
and with a life expectancy of about 40 years. Do you want that?
I'm 39 now, so, uhm, no.
{"commentId":1544601,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"fitzright"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1546181,"authorDomain":"ryanbooker"}
The point is that we can rise above our primate nature and make an informed, reasoned decision with regard to eating or not eating other animals. It is possible to have a perfectly healthy diet without eating meat.
In fact, while I'm not a vegetarian, I see the moral argument for vegetarianism as the most compelling.
Arguments about incisor teeth etc are moot. We have those things because of our evolutionary past. They have no bearing on whether or not vegetarianism is a viable or moral choice to make now.
{"commentId":1546181,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"ryanbooker"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1544620,"authorDomain":"Arcturas"}
I eat primarily carb, and some protein, a little of which is fish, so I guess I can't be called a Vegetarian, the rest of my proteins are plant based. I do not eat any dairy.The reason I made this decision was primarily my health, but it's taken me 6 years to get here. I started off not eating red meat, then pork, and now finally chicken. Which has been the hardest to put down. Along the way. I have learned how to cook Tempe, and TVP. I use very little Tofu, but I do use it occasionally. For protein I eat about a cup of beans every day. I guess you could call it macrobiotic, except I don't limit my veggies. I do try to buy locally if I can.
But I don't begrudge anyone else their meat eating. However I will say this, as a modern society we don't need to eat meat. As Brian pointed out there is nothing to stop any vegetarian from doing anything. Now I'm sure that if I were on a deserted island, and my choices were poor, I would eat what I could get, but as a American with all kinds of choices, I don't need to have meat on my table.
{"commentId":1544620,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"Arcturas"}
- 4 votes
#20 - Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:29 PM EST{"commentId":1544749,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1544766,"authorDomain":"Arcturas"}
It has helped me to get healthy again, I don't know that it will stop me from getting cancer, but I feel better most of the time. It has helped with my migraines in particular.
{"commentId":1544766,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"Arcturas"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1544780,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1544815,"authorDomain":"Arcturas"}
oh yeah, exercise and eating are what have made me healthy again. An hour of Yoga and running, and you know what, I did not turn into a Democrat. I don't think my Dad believes it though.
{"commentId":1544815,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"Arcturas"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1544843,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}
{"commentId":1544849,"authorDomain":"Tenurist"}
I love these arguments if Iwas trapped on a desert island. I totally agree, if I was trapped on the moon I'd probably eat moon men. But only if, other was I would not eat any, or martians.
{"commentId":1544849,"threadId":"227568","contentId":"1336544","authorDomain":"Tenurist"}
- 3 votes
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