An open letter to Newsvine

I may not be an oldtimer, but I've seen a big change in my time here and it ain't for the better.

I wonder what constitutes an oldtimer these days, as I would think it would need to be a sliding scale as Newsvine ages. I've definitely been using my (!) button more often lately as well. I blame the current state of discourse on 3 things, the fact that we're in a national election cycle, the fact that it is now possible to bypass the Greenhouse if you come here through certain channels, and the fact that original and offbeat content (the reason I originally enjoyed Newsvine) is being buried by seeds and political drivel. Newsvine is starting to resemble a message board where people come to spray their venom without concern regarding how it might be perceived because they're only here for that one comment and never plan to engage in a dialogue. Then you get those who do engage in a dialogue but it's like they're quoting a script of talking points and they have to stay on message. Then we have one person, who shall remain nameless for fear of conjuring him up in this thread, who always seems to work something negative about Obama into every single freakin' comment thread he touches. Honestly, I think if you posted an article about kittens he would toss an Obama grenade into it.

As I mentioned on another thread, I'm hoping some of this settles down once the election is over, and as another person said, after the conspiracy theories about the results die down. I would like to see the sense of community come back and am willing to help in any way I can.

DbZ

Do you know that roasted kitten is a Kenyan speciality?

I am willing to bet that.........

Now serious

Sorry to spoil the fun. This will not be over before elections are over. I don't want to repeat myself, but whoever remembers what comparable sites endured in 2004 will know what is still in the pipeline.

I personally consider it a disgrace that the greenhouse has been qua-abolished just at the time when the greenhouse is needed more than ever before. It was a feature I especially liked (though for some very odd reason unknown to me, I never went through the greenhouse myself).

Now, I'm certainly not the one generally on the receiving end of the venom, but even if my skin is thick, I sense that I myself have become more aggressive in the needle-gun environment that has become NV as of late. And I don't think this has something to do with getting used to the tone; the tone has changed.

Its not good, its not fun. And in fact it becomes previsible and boring. The boredom of emotional overload. Like Dennis I have thought about leaving for good over the last days. But there are still some things I want to do here before taking my hat.

The Greenhouse must come back into use. It's really the number one reason we have so many drive-bys these days.

If MSNBC is concerned about disuading potential users because they cannot instantly do their spewing, then they should partition the Vine into basic and premium use.

People who want to abide by the CoH and go through the Greenhouse should be given the opportunity to join the premium Vine, with the tagline "get smarter here".

The spitting neandethals can use the basic Vine, with the tagline "have your say here" (most likely for one-time use) MSNBC can have their traffic.

I try to moderate my own threads for civility but it is not easy to do when I have 20 or more going at the same time.

People who want to abide by the CoH and go through the Greenhouse should be given the opportunity to join the premium Vine, with the tagline "get smarter here".

That's a fabulous suggestion and it would take care of the drive by seeding too.

Yeah, nearing, that's a fantastic idea.

They could even charge a subscription fee, though all current members would be grandfathered in, of course, with RAV winners getting a lifetime membership ;-)

Bah, they're not gonna charge a subscription fee. They'd have to do away with earnings first.

Great comment nearing, I like your thinking! We need some creative solutions to a problem that's not going to be remedied by simple band-aids. They always fall off anyway :)

Dennis P. McCann:

of course, with RAV winners getting a lifetime membership ;-)

But of course!

(also lifetime membership for the one who thought of it......hint)

Yes but it wouldn't work, would it?

Actually I might be willing to pay a few bucks a month to be part of the premium Vine.

Worth it to have intelligent and civil conversation. It's why I came here to begin with.

I should add that the premium Vine doesn't have to involve a fee just a willingness to go thru the Greenhouse and abide to the CoH.

But you've turned the whole business model on its head.

An "elitist" vine such as you describe would become an irrelevance simply because it was a closed shop. NV only works because it's public, widely viewed, open to all. The elite vine would become a reclusive polite talking shop for pseudo-intellectuals.

If it remained relevant it would still be infiltrated by the trolls if, as claimed by some, there are organisations wishing to hijack NV to promulgate a particular world view. They would be as prepared to pay as anyone else.

A fortiori, if there were no fee involved. Once out of greenhouse elite viners could be no more compelled to observe CoH than they are now. You still have the same enforcement problem.

If you need money to be elite, then getting smart would be for sale.

Dennis M Wright:

But you've turned the whole business model on its head.

An "elitist" vine such as you describe

Elitist? Closed? How do you get that from only people willing to go through the Greenhouse and abide by the code?

If it remained relevant it would still be infiltrated by the trolls

Seems that we as a community could handle those trolls with the Report button. It's the drive-bys that we wouldn't have to put up with anymore. Which is a huge part of the problem, is it not?

The "premium" idea might fly although it certainly did not with the New York Times who tried it with TimesSelect and then abandoned it altogether. Advertisers aren't going to buy space on webpages with only a fractional viewership.

MSNBC bought Newsvine when it was required that we all go through the Greenhouse.

I think more than a small fraction of us would join the Premium Vine, don't you? Just look at the response to this article.

Please add me to the list, Djehuty. I like your idea too, nearing, altho Bill's point needs consideration. What about selling advertising to a 'niche market' in the premium Vine? Canada's top Jazz station has cashed in on advertising companies that want to appeal to jazz fans. On the web, I think that would be totally possible, perhaps to join, you'd have to fill out a survey indicating your interests, so that the ads that show up would be relevant to you? Just a thought.

you'd have to fill out a survey indicating your interests, so that the ads that show up would be relevant to you? Just a thought.

I wouldn't be opposed to that but I thought they already did that sort of data gathering on us already, just behind the scenes.

nearing

I'm not saying the idea doesn't have merit. I think it does. I'm simply saying that I doubt that MSNBC would go for it or provide the material resources for it as it goes against the business model they were aiming at with the acquistion of Newsvine which was to generate more advertising revenue by opening up a portal for commentary on MSNBC content.

Not to mention that, though the Greenhouse was still essentially in operation when msnbc.com bought Newsvine, they quickly bypassed it by allowing those who join through clicking a button on msnbc.com to skip it altogether.

You still have to go through the Greenhouse if you join Newsvine via regular channels.

Which leads me to the conclusion: msnbc.com would never go for it.

Viki:

Sigh. How many times do we have to go over this? If you are following winsome's thread, you might've seen my exchange with Pamela about krishna's irritating repetition. This is why repitition, though frequently irritating is also frequently necessary.

So. For the hundredth time. NOBODY BYPASSES THE GREENHOUSE. You always had commenting privileges immediately when you were. in the Greenhouse anyway. The problem seems to be comment-drivebys and trolls all of which you have the ability to do from the Greenhouse.

Stop justifying being a troll to yourself jack, it's pitiful to watch. Stop trying to raise the temperature in an otherwise fairly languid thread just to amuse yourself, run along now.

Djehuty:

Yeah. And people in the Greenhouse can immediately post articles. First thing I ever did on NV after registering was post an article.

Yes, people in the Greenhouse can immediately post articles/seeds. But they are segregated from appearing on the front page. You can really only find them by visiting the Greenhouse, or if a friend has done so and commented, thus popping the article/seed into your comment tracker.

Users coming through msnbc.com, as far as I know, do not have their articles and seeds segregated in that manner, so their seeds which arrive via the "discuss this on Newsvine" button appear immediately on the Vine proper.

Though official confirmation of that fact might be hard to come by, a simple visit to the Greenhouse should help you see what I'm talking about.

And no. Forcing msnbc.com immigrants to be segregated in the Greenhouse would not stop the drive-by commenting that has become such a concern. It would, however, prevent the numerous msnbc.com seeds being posted to the Vine by users who 1. have no interest in the Vine community 2. have no concept of how we do things around here and 3. don't bother to moderate their threads.

And the moderation of threads has been, really, a big, if not the biggest, source of the problem.

You can repeat things all you want, Jack, in the mistaken belief that it is necessary. That doesn't mean you are right or that you've bothered to think the issue through thoroughly.

jfxgillis

FYI

I never showed up on a Greenhouse list. I seeded the first day and commented the first day and had a first pimple on my stick within 24h.

Now if that doesn't mean I have bypassed Greenhouse I don't know what the Greenhouse is.

Users coming through msnbc.com, as far as I know, do not have their articles and seeds segregated in that manner, so their seeds which arrive via the "discuss this on Newsvine" button appear immediately on the Vine proper.

They're in the greenhouse, but greenhouse doesn't mean what you think it means.

It means you're not eligible for the Top Seeds and Featured Writers boxes... but it doesn't keep you out of most active etc.

Moreover, greenhouse status isn't about longevity on the 'Vine, it's about votes and comments and the like. Thus putting up a seed from MSNBC gets you out of the greenhouse pretty quick because it's going to attract lots of votes and comments.

Which is why we see a number of Veteran Viners seeding so heavily from MSNBC right now... it attracts a lot of votes and comments.

Viki:

Users coming through msnbc.com, as far as I know, do not have their articles and seeds segregated in that manner, so their seeds which arrive via the "discuss this on Newsvine" button appear immediately on the Vine proper.

That's a good point I forgot about.

However, my point remains with respect to drivebys and trolls. They don't bypass the Greenhouse.

Yes, your point does remain. That's why I agreed with you.

My point about users coming via msnbc.com not bothering to moderate their threads, and that being a big part of the problem, also still stands.

Viki:

OMG. We both made valid points and we both agreed they were valid points. I think I'll just freeze here.

:^{)>

A new day has dawned, Jack. We might want to put on our tinfoil hats now, and enter the bunkers. The world might possibly come to an end.

(((group hug with Jack and Viki)))

Yay!

Well, I don't know if I'd go that far... ;)

Eh, Robin just has a thing for group hugs ;-)

Viki, robin:

Okay. I'll un-freeze just long enough for a group hug. Watch my hands, though.

If Robin and Viki deign to engage you in a group hug, it's you who'd better watch your hands, pal.

I wouldn't be opposed to that but I thought they already did that sort of data gathering on us already, just behind the scenes.

I'm pretty sure they do unless everybody else gets a lot of Harley-Davidson ads on here. (I'm always on that site for work)

If Robin and Viki deign to engage you in a group hug, it's you who'd better watch your hands, pal.

I dunno about Robin (though I could venture a guess), but Viki can get pretty handsy!

WTF? I am innocent as the driven snow, for god's sake.

Cough..... choke.... gag.... spit...

There goes that keyboard...

WTF? I am innocent as the driven snow, for god's sake

What's this? I just got a message?"On behalf of the driven snow we'd like to protest the comparison."

The Greenhouse must come back into use. It's really the number one reason we have so many drive-bys these days.

Well, I think that Nearing's idea for a premium 'Vine is interesting, but there may be other ways to provide a differentiaion of impact. Try this on for size:

1. You can join on demand and post and comment, but your comments and votes will not count for some pre-determined embargo period. In other words, you can participate right away but your participation will not count until there's some sort of vetting process. Kind of like a green card period.

2. If someone is a repeat offender, they can have their voting privileges revoked for a period of time.

This should keep trolls and astroturfers from swarming.

I think the notion of a "Newsvine premium" undermines the idea of Newsvine itself by eliminating the egalitarian aspect of no user being "greater" than another unless they outperform them in the meritocracy that is competition around here.

The thing is with that, PH, is that the trolls and drive-by shouters don't vote anyway. That's why the very worst of the worst threads have hundreds of comments and 12 votes.

All these ideas and feel-good notions are great, but the only thing that will make a difference is more cops walking the beat.

More moderators, with green comment boxes, who can lay the law down.

That's my two-cents, and I'll stay off of the list. I'll gladly hop on a list that says we need more moderators. Because we do.

I mentioned the same thing to Calvin, E.D., and this is what he said.

As far as hiring moderators to review and moderate all content on the site, it just doesn't pencil or scale - especially given that Newsvine's entire model is based on the assumption that a benevolent and properly incentivized community of people can both produce a lot of great content, as well as police itself as needed, provided the right set of tools. I'd explain it all again in detail, but it's late and I'm tired.

If the point is for us to moderate our own threads, it makes absolutely no sense for staff to come back and restore or ignore your input from your own thread. Sorry for stating the obvious here, but I think I'm about to pull my hair out. Is this a power struggle now?

Djehuty:
I definitely don't think that there would ever be a situation where we wouldn't need moderators. I do agree that context matters in situations where moderation is applied on Newsvine's behalf.

With regard to Eric Albert I must stridently disagree with you. Just because he uses a Socialist vocabulary to insult his opponents does that mean he should be allowed to routinely skirt the CoH? Should I be allowed to say "Djehuty is a scheissekopf." because I'm speaking a different language? Or is it the intent to call a user a nasty name that matters?

We wouldn't need more moderators if there was a consistently applied and impartial policy of dealing with trolls and repeat offenders, in my opinion. But a moderator has to get the context, not just read an individual comment and decide on the basis of that alone whether the writer should be sanctioned.

One of the things that was most appealing about Newsvine in its earliest days was the degree to which it was self-policing. The most current study about collaborative workplaces suggests that the removal of barriers and artifical constraints on real communication is the single most powerful means of harnessing collective effort to a common goal (in this case, the development of a community in which free speech is nurtured). And Djehuty calls it right on the money, because a set of common and universal principles -- rather than case by case, heavy-handed and inconsistent enforcement based on nothing more than situational perceptions -- is the single most critical enabler to achieve that.

You stated it for me well, also.

I'm with Fogey. I don't generally get pulled in by the great currents here but I agree that something wonderful is dying right before my eyes.
Add my name to the list.
Perhaps you could turn it into a specific 'Petition', the specific goal of which would have to be discussed and agreed upon. Maybe a private group could be created in which a consensus could be worked out.

Wow!

Rebecca Yarowsky, you were my first friend and I haven't seen you since. It's good to read you again. Welcome back.

See? The healing's already begun!

Hmmmm ?? what about ..........

First they came for the Muslims, and I said nothing, because I believe radical Islam is a threat to peace.

Then they came for the anti-globalisation protesters, and I said nothing because those dirty hippies should get a job.

Then they came for the bloggers, so I censored myself because it's only a hobby after all.

Uh-oh. I think I have a problem.

I'm a dirty hippie blogger who defends Muslims.

SthPacific:

You are free to expound on your viewpoints. Just remember the CoH.

First they came for the Muslims, and I said nothing, because I believe radical Islam is a threat to peace.

Who doesn't think that radical _________(fill in the blank) is a threat to peace?

Any extremist ideology is going to upset the status quo.

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing but it should not give one carte blanche to inciting hatred. I know many of our radio hosts get away with it in the name of MSM profit but that does not mean that it is right.

Then they came for the bloggers, so I censored myself because it's only a hobby after all.

Haven't I warned you, thems fightin' words!! :~)

Uh-oh. I think I have a problem.

I'm a dirty hippie blogger who defends Muslims.

C'mon Dennis, I wouldn't call you a blogger necessarily.

More of a nerf-herder

I believe dennis washes frequently.

Newsvine's a farce. But it still has many good people and interesting tributaries

C'mon Cowboy Your contradicting yourself,.... Newsvine is not a farce because ...."it still has many good people and interesting tributaries"

I've only been around since Feb this year and I've seen a deterioration in quality if the membership, but so have many other people, and it looks like we're gonna do something about it.

I'm in the same time frame, Jerry, and I agree with you. I think I'd been here for two weeks when The Prank went live.

Add. SteveHouse. If ye don't mind.

ooww my eye.

Steve, I came over on the day of the prank. I thought if so many members of this community were up in arms over the prank and the effect it might have on NV, it was obviously a place worth fighting for. I lurked a little longer then joined. I don't know of another site quite like this, and it is totally worth fighting for.

I thought if so many members of this community were up in arms over the prank and the effect it might have on NV, it was obviously a place worth fighting for.

right on, ann

very good point

I smell bunnies....

I thought it was goat.

nearing, my part of the prank involved pretending I was djehuty and admitting to running a small abattoir and detailing a new venture I was embarking on as a vivisectionist, [with bunnies], I included some pretty bad bunny pictures. I have since apologised but god help me, I still think it was funny.

oh, I see, well, bunnies it is then.

sounds a bit morbid, but hey, I was oblivious at the time.

Eh, so were we.

winsome,

At the risk of stirring up old crap I must say yours was brilliant. Viki's too as I was semi fooled by hers.

God bless.

Since the 'vine survived that debacle intact, when many said it wouldn't, perhaps there is hope after all.

This kitten is cooked.

garnished, diced, digested and on the way out. I'll lend a hand to put out the fire. I'm not afraid of work, but at some point we have to realize all the great ideas to save the timbers are going to be decided on by MSNBC.

Every idea should be developed along two lines. One is saving the vine, the other is planting a tree.

I think this is the germination phase, and I hope this is the fertilizer list, because I believe without a doubt any connection to MSM, especially ownership, is not going to work.

... and another thing, do we want to help this place grow like so many of you did before and then get shafted again? Are we going to pull weeds for free? If that's the case, I would suggest we plant something for free.

My personal favorite was Brad's, um, personals.

My personal favorite was Brad's, um, personals.

Oh man...I got such a confused call from my mother that day. That's the day I found out my parents stalk me on newsvine. Fun conversation though hehe

*whispers*Do your parents know about the pixel babies?

*whispers*Do your parents know about the pixel babies?

They do now. Geez!
:)

Well, they should. I'm pretty sure it was his parent's address I last airmailed them to...er...at least that's what he said.

Oh, I imagine they do. They might not really know wtf it's all about though hehe.

And Celestina, do you ever read your email? I'm going to have to start just calling you to get your attention aren't I? (now to find that phone number.......)

if we want newsvine to be the place we love again, we all need to come together and put all the Bull@!$%# and petty flame wars behind us and become what we want others to become.

Very well said, Rob.

In signing this open letter, we are making a commitment to do just that.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm glad to have the rare American currency to have appreciated in value in recent years.

As long as the Two Cents phrase has been around, shouldn't have appreciated to ten bucks by now?

Please forgive the typos above. I was going along rather quickly and failed to proofread my remarks. I hate it when that happens!

Carry on ...

But, I have to be very honest, at the risk of causing offense (which is not my intent). It is my sincere and quite firm belief that a small number of the people here who are cheering you on, adding their names to the list, and preaching loudly are also among some of the fiercest and most vociferous partisans who have participated enthusiastically in some of the worst sceamfests and bloodletting that this site ever has seen.

I agree with you Tom, I see some of the usual suspects here signing off on this list. This could be a good thing. I can only hope they practice what they preach.

I agree with you Tom, I see some of the usual suspects here signing off on this list. This could be a good thing. I can only hope they practice what they preach.

Well, I think that if we could bring Newsvine back to a "peacetime" outlook we could begin to get a more objective representation of what's healthy participation and what's not. I no longer give some Newsviners the benefit of the doubt - clearly there's a legion that's come here specifically to promote an agenda mindlessly, never leaving links to corroborating materials or engaging in constructive discussions, just repeating "party lines."

Question, if you don't mind my asking, is "djehuty a real name or user handle?" I agree with the sentiment, I like my handle.

Tom

Absolutely.

Tom, your thoughts echo my own. Eloquently said.

I do hold out hopes, as it seems Rob does. . .

Tom Bombadil, you are right. Some very good writers & people got bullied, mobbed, and run off the Newsvine web site by the people who now yell about new people--look at that list of names to see some of the worst misbehavers. They are whining because your ability to mob attack & feel like your in charge is all diluted down now. There is a lot of hypocrisy here. Now some of the "we're more important" gang is having to deal with being "nobody" other than "average member" to lots of new people and so that makes them mad.

Without new people to read and get into it, the business will not do well. Maybe those who think new people aren't good enough should go form their own website and keep people away. See how well you can run a business keeping people away.

I like those suggestions.

And don't forget my name on the list...

Quality ideas, Jack.

@jack: Great ideas and good thinking as usual. That's why you got that RAV which I never got to congratulate you on! You suggest that Martin should start the group, but the way you phrase it... it sounds like something you might not want to be a part of? Am I reading it correctly?

evano:

Thanks!

Djehuty and I are mostly civil to each other when we cross paths but our belief systems on things like meta or the Middle East (or, for that matter, meta AND the Middle East) are just too far apart to reasonably expect us to get along without conflict. Tell you what, though--if I were on a thread emanating from such a group I'd abide by the strictures.

But now that you mention it, didn't vas try to do some group called "Chivalrous Argument" or something like that? I spotted the article on NV Live one day a few months ago and left a comment. If I remember, the aims were similar to what Djehuty is trying for.

Jack are you talking about Logic on the Vine?

I decided to stop lurking and sign my name to the letter publicly...

I'm still a little intimidated by very long comment threads, but yes, I am committed to trying to keep the Newsvine community healthy.

Hi Jack
It's so good to see everyone thoughtfully trying to address the problem :)

Tell you what, though--if I were on a thread emanating from such a group I'd abide by the strictures.

Is is not the point though, that we shouldn't need a dedicated group to encourage users to abide by an agreed code of civil conduct when debating issues? Getting on without conflict of an abusive manner despite views that are poles apart is something I aspire to. It's a challenge for me at times (not just on NV) but absolutely worth expecting from others too, I think.

Tamh:

Is is not the point though, that we shouldn't need a dedicated group to encourage users to abide by an agreed code of civil conduct when debating issues?

That's a point, but if Djehuty's right, and I presume you believe he is, then we need to construct supporting mechanisms (maybe even supporting institutions which is sort of what I'm suggesting) to better ensure that what we love survives.

Think of Djehuty as the Benjamin Franklin of Newsvine establishing a volunteer fire department.

And damn that analogy works on so many levels.

:^{)>

Jack,

Thank you for the excellent suggestion. I know one concern regarding utilizing group functionality for such a purpose is that it could cause a resurgence of the old "clique" and favoritism allegations.

Perhaps the idea will gain some traction as it is you who have publicly put it forth and not one who has been accused of cliquishness (is that a word?) in the past.

Brenda:

not one who has been accused of cliquishness (is that a word?) in the past.

Tee hee. Er, thanks, but, I'm not sure that's accurate.

:^{)>

I think I have been part of the problem here. I do apologize for using this site to air my political grievences. I agree with Eriq though that using your real name can be dangerous because of identity theft. My husband is a network engineer with his own company and he has told me severaly times to never reveal personal info. on the computer. Just a thought. Please add me to the list and I will promise to keep my opinions low key and stick to the topic at hand. Thanks.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with holding a strong opinion or being oppositional on a given idea. The problem comes from attacking people personally and crudely instead of an intelligent response to the ideas.

Many people resort to attacking the messenger if they do not like the message but cannot refute it.

The problem with this, Roy (Matt), is that many if not most of those wanting their names to be added to the list are the most guilty; they don't take that responsibility and many are proud of that fact.

Similarly, when you do take that responsibility, you are attacked as "stifling free speech" - of the offenders (the purveyors of no value comments, Inflammatory drive-by insults. Seriously, this conduct is nothing new, and it will continue as long as this site remains open (allowing comments to be published before an approval from an administrator), allowing anyone to sign up

We can all talk about responsibility until the cows come home; it requires responsible people; and that hasn't happened here. How are you going to enforce responsibility?

How are you going to enforce responsibility?

As usual, eriq, you make damn good observations and ask damn good questions.

Other than personal initiative (including being a bit thick-skinned about the "stifling free speech" agitators) I'm not sure how to approach it.

I liked the Greenhouse process, where newbies had a waiting period before fully participating. That did a lot for the "drive-by" commentors which may or may not have some dedication to our community. I fear the MSNBC acquisition had something to do with its disappearance.

many if not most of those wanting their names to be added to the list are the most guilty; they don't take that responsibility and many are proud of that fact.

I noticed that as well, though trust me I will be the last one to throw stones here. Sometimes lively discussion gets, well, ... lively. How do we encourage that without going too far? Some of the most though-provoking conversations I've read have sometimes gone a bit dark when they go too long.

But what to do? Do we really want a limit on the number of responses we can submit for a particular article? Do we want some hard rule to bounce a community member when they step over that "line" even after their 125th comment? Do we run off someone when we don't like the first thing they've said?

What do you think, eriq?

do you have to extremely intelligent? If so, I am in a heap of trouble!!!

If you ask that question, you are already "smart" enough for Newsvine!

I noticed my error in my question.

Regardless, thank you Roy!

Susan from Oklahoma
(Huckleberi)

Even adult discussions lapse into utter silliness sometimes. You may have noticed this already.

Jsbach: do you know yet how to use the little boxes in the lower right corner of a dialogue box?

Welcome!

If you feel like your ire is getting the best of you, you can consider that an opportunity to hone your writing skills towards diplomacy and sensibility.